On Mar 26, 2:24 pm, al <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Jan 29, 2:43 am, al <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:> On Jan 7, 5:27
pm, =
al <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:> NAQ (Never-Asked-Question) :
>
> > > Who coined the mahjong symbols "Cash", "String of Cash" , "Myriad of
> > > Cash" and why?
>
> The answer to this was given as Himly.
> Understandable..."String of Cash" or "Myriad of Cash" are not terms in
> common Chinese usage. In fact, Chinese Sparrow-game players do not use
> those names at all.
> The average Chinese native would have a totally different image of the
> "string of cash" and what it looks like (definitely NOT in a roll that
> looks like a sausage or bamboo rod); as for "myriad of cash", it is
> unheard of. Yet these have become standard terms in Western mahjong
> history. Furthermore, Westerners concluded that Cash was the base for
> the mahjong game. As I found out recently, the Chinese official
> version of the mahjong game history has not been directly examined,
> translated or referenced.
> +++++++++
> Why? It was a matter of ignorance and superficial understanding of
> > foreign language and culture in addition to taking the [SLANG] words
of
> > natives who were uneducated.
>
It has been known that the mahjong game was the recreation for the
literate.
> I mean they were uneducated in Chinese classic. They as others and
> myself used to do; relied on slang words in verbal communication. Most
> people never go to school and do not read or write.
My mother did not know a single word.
> I remember quoted Culin's own word about the use of slang by the
> Chinese he encountered in his research.
> [..]
>
> Here is the ROOT of the problem of forever confusion in the game's
> terminology. The CORE IDEA of the game had been lost for hundreds or
> more years. Regional slang terms added as the game migrated from place
> to place. When the natives of a region did not know why they called
> the symbols, how and why Westerners think and believe Culin, Himly or
> Wilkinson had all the correct and definitive terms by just talking to
> those people? It boggles my mind!
> I quote from Steward Culin's "The Game of Ma-Jong". The terminology of
> Chinese games is made up of slang and is highly elusive."
>
> > He was aware of that, but went on and made the mistake of calling the
> > symbols as though they were for real.
>
No one knew enough to make a correction then. But why? Now many
English speaking Chinese 150yeasrs ago? Who had the time and dare to
argue about it in writing then? And who would listen to him anyway?
Not yhen and not even now...
> A little thinking on the game symbols plus a bit of understanding of
> Chinese language would have steered Westerners away from their
> mistaken interpretation in the early beginning when they first come
> upon the mahjong game.
>
> Symbols represent something else. It is as simple as that. First
> mistake...
> Words are more communicative than symbols. If the Chinese (author) had
> wanted the suit to mean a hundred-cash, it would have been an easy
> thing to engrave the words hundred-cash.
>
If 'Wan' is =CD=F2 (100 x 100) Cash, and if 'sou'(=CB=F7) is 100 Cash, why
n=
ot
simply use the symbol(=B0=D9) for hundred instead of 'string of Cash'
(=CB=
=F7)?.
=CB=F7 is an uncommon and ambiguous term, whereas (=B0=D9) hundred is
clearl=
y
numerical. Since (=B0=D9) was not used in mahjong suit instead of =CB=F7,
th=
en =CB=F7
has a different than numerical meaning. Just think. If (=B0=D9 x =B0=D9)
=3D=
=CD=F2,
why use =CB=F7. Obviously, =CB=F7 is not =B0=D9, a string of hundred
coins.
Furthermore, if that is not a string of coin, then Circle is not coin.
Why is it so difficult to see that? BTW, no square holes anyway.
> Here is a stupid interpretation that escaped logic. I mean why would a
> game designer (if he is using cash as the base) go from one-tenth of
> one cent to a next higher suit in one-hundred? Then the next higher
> suit is ten-thousand? Why not simply from units to tens and to
> hundreds in decimal steps?
No satisfactory answer seen to above question as yet; no explanation
from early authors either.
> The point is two little words can replace all symbols. Why use symbols
> if they didn't mean something more than 2 words can replcae? Answer is
> simple. All the symbols have more meaning than 2 words can say.
>
For that matter, why bother to draw 9 concentric circles (27 and more
circles) when 2 words can take their place; thstis if the circles were
coins?
If the circles were cash, 2 words could have done the job better than
symbols.
Again, because the circles were not cash, simple words were not used.
Therefore the coloful concentric layers of circles are symbols for a
conplex concept rather than a single object.
> Above all, CASH is nowhere near what the symbol meant.
> > Culin gave a description of a set of Chinese cards played by Laborers
> > as follow.
> > "First, tsin, Chinese coins of the lowest denomination, called by the
> > slang name of ""ping" or "cakes" from one to nine; second, strings of
> > one hundred each of these same Chinese coins, called "sok", "string",
> > from one to nine..."
>
> Even "slang" is slanted. Ping is little cookie. It is mixed up just
> because the shape is round. And how does a string go with "cakes"?
> > The key word is SLANG that made the terminology of games "elusive". As
> > a matter of fact. A slang name is NOT the true name for a thing. As an
> > example, "sok", assuming it means "string" as indicated by Culin,
> > being a slang name, it is therefore not a string. Same for the slang
> > name "tsin"; it was not real coin.
>
> "SOK" is not a string of cash.
> For one thing, Cash is NOT cash-money. As an example in contem****ary
> experience, a mouse (with a computer) is not a mouse (in the house).
Mouse is slang word here. When it is said mahjong is cash-suited or
money-based, it is just like saying a software is mouse-based. A mouse-
device represents a concept in computer technology; likewise the
circle represents a concept in Chinese philosophy. In broken English:
mouse no mouse; cash no cash.
>
> [..]
>
> > [..]
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> > > The following was taken from a post dated November 3, 2007.
> [..]
> > > > > Do you know if 'string of cash' was a term first coined and used
b=
y a Westerner?
>
> > > MS:
> > > > With reference to Maque, it was re****ted by, and therefore used
by,
> > > > Himly. Himly writes 'so' but gives the character (in Pinyin) for
> > > > 'suo3'. It is the same character that Pan uses for the "String
Suit"=
..
>
> > > > Therefore, with reference to Madiao, it was re****ted by, and
therefo=
re
> > > > used by Pan
>
> > > +++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++
> > > January 7, 2008
>
> > > Would this be a correct interpretation then?
>
> > > Pan used "suo", according to Lo.
> > > Lo's translation was "suo" for =CB=F7.
> > > Lo's translation was published in the 20th century, The Playing-Card
> > > Vol. xxix Number 3.
> > > Himly wrote it as "So" when he described =CB=F7 in the 19th
century.
> > > Wilkinson referred to =CB=F7 as a "string of Cash", after Himly,
likew=
ise
> > > did Culin.
> > > Himly referred to =CB=F7 "suo" as "string of Cash" before Wilkinson,
C=
ulin
> > > and Lo.
>
> > > Himly was the first to call =CB=F7 as a "string of Cash". Is that
corr=
ect?
> > > I wonder if Lo had gotten the "string" from Himly but only =CB=F7
with=
out
> > > the specific "string" from Pan.
String was mis-interpreted. Since then scholars, historians and
authors follow suit.
>
> > > The mahjong set of Himly had =CB=F7 looking like bamboo sticks (?)
and=
> > > circles without square holes, looking unlike Cash. Himly's =CB=F7 in
> > > reality at the time of discovery and his writing could not have been
a=
> > > "string of cash" when Cash was not copper coins as those circles had
> > > no holes. Cash by definition was a copper coin with a square hole in
> > > the middle of each round circle. No hole; not Cash. It's simple
logic.=
> > > In fact the hole-less circles look just like coins for divination
use,=
> > > shown in a link at the end of this post.
>
Coins without holes in roll is called a "string of cash". Can you
believe that?
A string is strong enough to hang a thousand coins? (It was modified
to 100 coins).
> > > The square hole was missing in all the circle symbols of all mahjong
> > > sets shown in M. Stanwick's mahjong(g), a 4-part series of The
Playing=
-
> > > Card, Volume 32 Number 4 and 5, Volume 34 Number 4 and Volume 35
> > > Number 1. Then how did Himly get the idea of "Cash" and "String of
> > > Cash"?
>
> > > I can see 2 possibilities. The circle had a shape that was round
like
> > > the copper coin and Chinese natives he contacted could have told him
> > > that they had called it "tong". Because similar sounds in different
> > > tones have different meanings, "Tong" can be a bamboo cylindrical
> > > holder like a tube =CD=B2, or =CD=AD for copper metal. [in my
dialect =
call it
> > > "huong".]
>
> > > Actually copper does not equate directly to cash. It can be copper
as
> > > in metal bracelet, copper as in metal button or copper as in metal
> > > utensils. In other words, copper is more like a morpheme which can
be
> > > a character or radical and as an adjective or a noun in the Chinese
> > > language, but not necessarily Cash. Cash needs another word to
> > > describe it, such as "tong chein" =CD=AD=C7=AE. In fact "chein"
=C7=AE=
alone has the
> > > full meaning of a metal [copper] coin, but not "tong". In term of
> > > Chinese etymology, Himly's "string of Cash" or "Cash" is mistaken
> > > translation.
>
> > > So "Cash" by Himly was taken incorrectly from the start. The mistake
> > > was in the interpretation that "tong" was "tong chein",
=CD=AD=C7=AE, =
instead
> > > of "tong", =CD=B2, bamboo cylinder; compounded by the assumption of
> > > "string" as monetary denomination and multiplied by (=CD=F2)
ten-thou=
sand
> > > times!
> [..]
By the way, Dau Nu (Fighting Tiger) had written record as a game of
Late Ming, why there is nothing found written on mahjong? What about
Ma Daio? Pan and Feng wrote manuals on it. Where was mahjong?
+++++++++++
Cheers....al
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