On Jan 31, 5:50 pm, al <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Dec 8 2007, 12:57 pm, Edwin Phua <fant...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 8, 6:07 am, mstanwick <mstanw...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 6, 8:42 pm, al <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 6, 2:05 pm, Edwin Phua <fant...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > > > > Anyway, Al's posting made me think about the confusion over the
> > > > > correct way of writing hu2 ('to win in mahjong') in Chinese.
> > > > > Traditionally, it has been =BA=CD (he2), [..]
That is good to know.
>
> =BA=CD (he2) is the correct way, because it means "putting the 14 cards
> TOGETHER". That makes sense. =BA=FA (hu2) or =BA=FE (also hu2) is
meaningl=
ess [..]
and out of context.
> When I was playing the game in around 1947 in China, people made that
> mistake already. We used to say "heck-woo". That is slang for "eating-
> =BA=FA" which is of course meaningless. But that was how teen agers
learne=
d
> the game. No book to show the game's lingo in writing. For this very
> fact that I lived through the actual experience of learning [like
others] =
and
> playing the game in China, I know how unreliable the common terms used
> by the natives can be.
>
It could not have been any better 100 years or 200 years earlier.
> > > > > [but in more modern times, there] are two other major ways of
writ=
ing this: =BA=FA (hu2; other meaning is
> > > > > reckless, foolish); and =BA=FE (also hu2; other meaning is
lake). =
If there
> > > > > can be dispute over this commonly used word, why not the Chinese
w=
ord
> > > > > for the suit in mahjong: =CD=AC; =CD=AD (both tong2 in
Mandarin); =
and =CD=B2 (tong3
> > > > > in Mandarin).
Yes. Why not. Every term is suspect.
>
> That is a good question. Every term is a suspect. Because of that, I
> suggested in my other posts that to get closer to the origin of
> mahjong, we can not rely on the names of the symbols or their
> appearance. People call the symbols by slang terms and artists can get
> creative on their engraving. I recall one of the historians was
> offered to have whatever he wished to put on the tiles in a shop. How
> variable can it be?
Why should historians rely almost solely on hearsay and artwork for
the game? I suppose they would have had to, because the early
discoverers might not have familiarized themselves with the game-play
so they had to rely on translators.
> I have focused on the structure of the game design and rules of game-
> play, features that have remained stable through the years. And we
> have to figure out what the game is about, otherwise the symbols have
> no frame of reference and they can go all over the place like =CD=AC;
=CD=
=AD
> (both tong2; and =CD=B2 tong3.)
>
A central theme or concept is the frame of reference needed. Since the
author(s) never left do***entation for posterity; and if there was
record of it initially, not many people could read then, now we can
only try to reconstruct the idea through correlative comparison with
the rules of play and distinctive yet consistent characteristics of
the game's intrinsic features with similarities elsewhere for their
association.
> > >]..]
>
> > Note: all hanyu pinyin are for Mandarin/Putonghua, unless otherwise
> > indicated.
>
> > There is indeed disagreement (or, at the least, diversity) over which
> > character is the 'correct' one to represent the concept of winning in
> [mahjong].
That indeed shows the depth or the lack of it in the knowledge of the
game. Winning is the objective of play, yet how to say it is a
confused notion. Why? because we never knew what the game was about!
(metaphorically, I mean).
I indicated the knowledge-base of mahjong as being shaky and raised a
number of questions.
>
> Getting the 14 piece together in a pattern of 2,3,3,3,3 is a win. In
> terms of Chinese etymology, =BA=CD =3D (rice + mouth) symbolically. The
> meaning intended is eating a meal TOGETHER. =BA=CD is getting it
together=
..
> Therefore it's the proper term. Slang and abbreviated writing obscured
> the meaning of it.
>
=BA=CD is the only word that makes sense, regardless how it's said.
> > mahjong. This arises because many players probably did not learn the
> > writing together with the pronunciation during the early spread of the
> > game. This accounts for the differences in the written character that
That sounds reasonable.
>
> As I said, there was no written instruction for newcomers to the game
> even in 1947 when I start to learn the game. Even text books were few.
> Books for recreational use were non-existent in my youth time in my
> hometown area.
>
> > perhaps reflected the regional/local language. =BA=FA, =BA=FE, and
also =
=BA=FD (I
> > missed this character out earlier), all pronounced hu2 in modern
> > Mandarin, are commonly used instead of =BA=CD (pronounced hu2 for
mahjon=
g,
> > he2 in most other usages; this character is the 'official' one used by
> > the WMO for MCR). For example, the Wikipedia article on mahjong uses
> > the character =BA=FA ("reckless") instead of =BA=CD (hu2/he2;
'harmony/
> > together'). Is there dispute over the usage of this common 'word'?
> > Yes, I would say, in the written representation of the pronunciation
> > which in the first place is not even uniform across dialects.
Well said.
>
> You are right. I disagree with the =BA=FA ("reckless") used in
Wikipedia. =
I
> never notice it. You should correct it for Wikipedia. I know "money-
> suited" is a term used there too for mahjong. It should be also
> corrected later.
>
> > I would also bring your attention back to the word =C2=E9=BD=AB
(ma2jian=
g4),
> > which is written as =C2=E9=C8=B8 (ma2que4; 'sparrow') in many Southern
l=
anguages
> > (Cantonese, Shanghainese, Hokkien etc.) and pronounced according to
> > their own sound systems. If we accept the theory that the Northern
> > Chinese (i.e. those speaking the Beijing language, =B1=B1=B7=BD=D1=D4
be=
i3fang1yan2)
> > used the characters that approximated the Shanghainese pronunciation
> > of =C2=E9=C8=B8=B6=F9 (ma2que4er2, Shanghainese ma tsiong) (this was
inf=
ormation
> > contributed by ithinc earlier in this newsgroup), then the Northern
> > Chinese way (of writing) is not the original one, and had in fact lost
> > the original meaning. Thus, the written representation is not always
> > faithful to the original meaning, particularly across the Chinese
> > languages.
Change from =C2=E9=C8=B8 to =C2=E9=BD=AB in name baffles me, the new name
tr=
anslated as
"hemp general", as written somewhere.
If =C2=E9=C8=B8 is hemp-bird, =C2=E9=BD=AB could be interpreted as
"straw-ma=
n"?
>
> [..]
> Personally, my basic knowledge tells me =C2=E9=C8=B8 is not =C2=E9=BD=AB
i=
n pronunciation.
> =C2=E9=BD=AB probably came on the scene after mah-jongg showed up in
Weste=
rn
> literature. I sense the yielding to pressure as I see a book cover
> with both names =C2=E9=C8=B8 and =C2=E9=BD=AB shown plus Sparrow!
>
> By the way, the common denominator =C2=E9 in both =C2=E9=C8=B8 and
=C2=E9=
=BD=AB could very well
> be another slang screw-up as in =CD=AC; =CD=AD (both tong2); and =CD=B2
(t=
ong3.)
> Neither =C2=E9=C8=B8 or =C2=E9=BD=AB correlate with the gameplay. And I
th=
ink the proper
> maiden name should do that.
>
I mean the rules of the game and the object of play have hardly any
correlation with =C2=E9=C8=B8 or =C2=E9=BD=AB. Something is not quite
right.=
> > Therefore, if we do look at =CD=AC; =CD=AD (both tong2); and =CD=B2
(ton=
g3), we have
> > to ask ourselves: which is/are the earliest examples, and in which
> > language? I do not particularly agree or disagree with the
> > interpretation (such as that given by Michael), as I have not looked
> > closely at the evidence presented.
>
What evidence?
> It's time to take a closer look. According to a historical note, there
> has not been anything new since Wilkinson's time or over 125 years
> ago. The discussion is about the proper terms for mahjong and that has
> direct affect on the origin of the game. The time to make your
> contribution is now.
>
I don't know where Chinese scholars / historians are, I noticed
mahjong is not their interest.
> > Yet, bearing in mind the comparisons with 'wordsets' such as hu2
(=BA=FA=
,
> > =BA=FE, =BA=FD, =BA=CD) and ma2jiang4/ma2que4
(=C2=E9=BD=AB/=C2=E9=C8=B8=
), what is the most commonly used
> > terms in Putonghua/Mandarin may not always be faithful to the original
>
> Your examples demonstrated the points very well.
>
> > meaning. Moreover, the Northern Chinese seem to favour the use of
=CC=F5=
> > tiao2 instead of =CB=F7 suo3 for the bamboo suit and =B1=FD bing3
instea=
d of =CD=B2/=CD=AD
> > tong3/tong2 for the circle suit. Are we even considering the relevant
> > evidence? That is to say, are the Putonghua pronunciations relevant?
>
My answer is a simple "No". Evidence collected by Himly, Culin,
Wikinson etc. are irrelevant in terms of mahjong origin. Their
rendition distorted the game's history, in my view.
> I have more to add about Tiao (=CC=F5) and (=CB=F7).
(=CB=F7) has been explained and referred to web sites already.
(=CC=F5) is another interesting item not yet explored.
> Leave {..} the (=CC=F5) for another post> [..]
What do you have on (=CC=F5)?
> > Cheers!
> > Edwin Phua
> Cheers.....al
> +++++++++++++
Cheers.....al
|
