On Mar 12, 6:12 pm, al <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 10:10 pm, al <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:> NAQ
(Never-asked-Question):
> > How Inaccurate is History of Ma Diao or Mahjong?
>
> Interesting question...but no discussion on it.
>
> >[..]
>
> Obviously changes had been made to many games, Ma Diao included.
>
> > Lo's translation of ma diao refers to an edition before the ancient
> > purpose [of these cards] was lost, and the applications became all the
> > more shallow" or after the ancient purpose [of these cards] was lost,
> > and the applications became all the more shallow"?
>
> Before or after? read it to mean "after".
> [..]
>
> > There is no mention in the translation of Ming games on the "purpose"
> > or "applications" of Ma Diao. Players and scholars / historians have
> > been oblivious to the presence of taiji diagram in Ma Diao.
That was because taiji diagram and concept of Grand Ultimate were
unfamiliar to uneducated people who inherited the game. Those old
timer passed their folklore down through the generations along with
additional changes through the years, until discoveries made and the
game re-written.
++++++++++
[ To people who discovered the mahjong,] Cash was
> > the only connection [recognizable]. [..].
>
> Can't help but wonder what text was being translated...I mean did Feng
> or pan call those "strings of Cash"? or did Lo interprete it using
> Himly's terminology?
>
> > [..]
>
> I have mentioned elsewhere in a post. The Chinese language was
> developed from pictographs. Words are abstracts of pictures or
> symbols. Symbol have meanings embedded in them; it's symbols are
> symbols of something else. Take the word or symbol for mouth, a
> square; it can represent a person, a voice or the mouth itself with
> lips and all.
>
> As shown, a mouth is more than just meaning a physical part of a body.
> It could mean a person behind the mouth or a voice comes out of a
> mouth.
>
I have more about this.
The symbol for "mouth" = 口
Ranking position is a pictograph of an organization chart 品,
represented by a group of mouths.
Personal character 品 格 has implication of conduct and
behavior of a
person in a group.
What is needed to feed a group of mouths among a population is
物品.
Thus one symbol can have multiple levels of metaphoric meaning.
> So "ten-thousand" in Ma Diao or Mahjong does not necessarily mean
> 10,000' [in numerical value only].
>
> > First the numbers in the translation were huge, outside the scope of
[common usage. In other words, unreal.]
> > [..]
> > [..]
> > [..]
>
> > [..]
> > In fact, if I read it right, change was made to Ma Diao as described
> > in page 87 (Lo) about a "Vice Minister of War Wang Daokun [1525-93] "
> > being "full of the virtue of wine" and "his rules for cash [wine
> > [..]
>
> > The question is then, does that mean the original PURPOSE and
> > APPLICATION of Ma Diao had been altered or destroyed during the Late
> > Ming period? Wang Daokun did tamper with the "rules for cash".
>
> > That being the case, then the interpretation for symbols of taiji
> > diagram, Grand Ultimate Zero Cash and Broken Cash etc. had been all
> > left out by War Minister, Wang Daokun's own "rules for cash". He
> > reversed the order and he even "dismissed the universe". As shown in
> > page 87 and I repeat. He "dismissed the [taiji] universe".
>
> That sounds like tampering.
>
There is this in page 87 of Lo's paper. "His idea was to put the poor
but virtuous to stand up to the brash and rich [in the game], not only
does he put them to shame, for one has to be able to use cash once it
is gathered.
The last sentence indicated actual money was used. Wang Daokun put up
the money and changed the hierarchical ranking order. That is how it
sounds to me.
> > [..]
> [..]
However, Rong, Pan and Feng had all missed the historical meaning of
Ma Diao, it seems to me, unless there were more to their manuals than
what was translated.
But then it is obvious. They did not agree on the meaning of the
game's name. That is an indication that there was no central idea to
Ma Diao. Then Cash is the only tangible connection.
> >[..]
>
> [..]
>
> > In view of evidence cited, I can say the Late Ming edition of Chinese
> > card game Ma Diao and its interpretation deviated from, and is
> > inaccurate and incomplete with reference to, its original intended
>
> In plain language, the game lost its meaning before Late Ming period.
>
> > [intended] version. Ma Diao along with its translation became a game
of
> > meaningless "strings" of Cash and without "purpose" or "application".
>
> The symbol for [it] was done after it was "discovered" in the 19th
century.
>
> > Unfortunately, the damage to Ma Diao is carried onto mahjong.
>
> The history of Ma Diao and Mahjong is not accurate; yes, it's
> inaccurate.
>
++++++++++++++
> > Cheers............al
>
> ++++++++++
Cheers again....al
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