On Nov 16, 5:21 pm, mstanwick <mstanw...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Nov 16, 5:21=EF=BF=BDpm, al <a...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > How does that compare to the modern version of matiao in FAQ #11, any
> > clue?
>
> According to Lo, the game of ma diao disappeared in the late 19th
> century. I am not aware of any four suited money packs apart from the
> Hakka cards.
>
> FAQ 11 shows a 3 suited deck.
>
> > There is yaiji and trigrams in that mtiao set. I think I mentioned
> > about that.
> > Even yin and yang symbols showed up in that set. Did you look at them?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Not even a "modern version"?
>
> No modern version exists that I am aware of (apart from Hakka cards).
>
I have to ask to see if I understand you correctly.
I just said FAQ #11 shows a "modern version" of matiao.
And you said you are not aware of any in existence.
Do you mean the 3-suited set is not a modern version of the 4-suited
matiao?
> > > The Japanese MJ Museum may be using the generic name 'ma diao' to
> > > refer to the style of cash-suited cards.
>
> > What now? Japanese matiao may be not matiao?
>
> No. Ma tiao or ma diao was played with a 4 suited money deck. All the
> pictures in the book are of 3 suited varieties. Where did you get
> "Japanese ma tiao"?
>
The disappearance of the 4-suited matiao and the appearance of the 3-
suited variety means nothing? I thought there was an evolution hypot.
of 40 ---> 30 and then 30 X 4 in the game of "money-cards", mahjong.
=46rom 40 ---> 30 could be the modernization process?
As for Japanese matiao, you had mentioned about their use of generic
name.
> > Pan's may be the earliest to show that taiji symbols. If there are
later=
games or
> > later versions of "modern" matiao or japanese matiao also show the use
> > of taiji symbols, that would sup****t my conjecture that mahjong could
> > be one of the games using taiji symbols in its design.
>
> Wrong. Pan's deck only had, probably, a taiji symbol on the 1 cash. If
> MJ developed from an earlier version of a card game deck then it is
> the earlier versions you need to be accessing to sup****t your ideas.
>
No. I am fixing it to any time frame as yet. I am trying to establish
a conceptual connection first.
> > I did not say mahjong is descendant of matiao. I didn't even notice
> > those taiji signs until very recently.[snip]
>
> One taiji symbol, perhaps, on a card that represents the rank of 1
> cash.
>
The taiji symbol saays a lot, Michael. In addition, there is ZERO-
CASH.
Taiji is the symbol of creation of the universe from 'nothingness'.
The two signs together represent the essence of all.
Comparison to this is like flying the national flag for any country.
It leases little doubt as to the nationality of the people.
Remember what Feng had said why the 40-cards were created? Emptiness
if I recall correctly. He had something to say there, though it was
not so clear.
> > The useful inference I can draw from the taiji symbols is that other
> > games have based their structure design on I-Ching concepts, as old
> > matiao and new matiao or whatever. Mahjong is much more refined piece
> > of work than those old cards.
>
> Wrong. Only one taiji symbol, perhaps. Inferring from one instance to
> a general instance is fallacious. Appearance of one symbol or even
> many symbols does not infer structure design based on I-Ching
> concepts, in any way whatsoever.
>
Disagree. More than one symbol for one thing, as I just explained.
They are key conceptual symbols for another.
That is actually more than your Cash-Hypot. All you have is a sign of
cash from somewhere and the rest were extensions of it. Is that
fallacious or not?
> > [..]
>
> > You may not have the correct understanding of my argument. I simple
> > say that the mahjong game design is based on I-Ching concepts. I have
> > not fixed any date to it. Age of the game is not in my argument. Is
> > that how you see it?
>
> I have no idea what this means.
>
I will have to explain better. Put it simpler, I would say it this
way. I wanted only to show that I-Ching symbols and/or concepts did
get used in game design. Then my next step is to show how they might
have been applied in mahjong structure design and in game-play.
By the way it is an intellectual exercise only. It will change
nothing. The game will be played just the way it is. How many Chinese
people in China will ever be aware of your cash-hypot? Like I told
you, they don't call it a cash-symbol.
> Regards
+++++++++
Cheers.....al
|
