Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
> "Peter Knutsen (usenet)" <peter@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:44275e72$0$60782$157c6196@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>I'm confused by some of the point costs in Shadowrun 4th Edition.
>>Specifically Adept Powers confuse me.
>
>
> Hi Peter
>
> I think I know how you prefer to play, and having played Shadowrun since
> 1989, I must say that I don't think you will like it.
>
> The rules are not always logical, and not always percise. As you have
I'm not asking for precision, I'm asking for rules that make sense. For
rules where one can always figure out the reason for why things don't
always cost the same.
In Sagatafl (new name for FFRE) the reason traits don't cost the same is
to achieve patterns. The real world is full of patterns. Smart people
tend to have more intellectual skills than less smart people. Therefore
intellectual skills cost less for characters with high Intelligence. And
so forth.
However, I can't see any reason for why Adepts pay less for non-combat
skills than non-Adepts in Shadowrun, or why they are even allowed to
purchase Improved Physical Attributes.
> pointed out, several of the Adept Powers can be duplicated in more than
one
> way, and typical for a different price, some cheaper, some more
expensive.
>
> But this not FFRE, and things don't have to match matematically. So it's
OK
> to pay 4 BP for a skill bought the normal way, and pay 2.5 BP buying
> Improved Ability for the same skill bought in a different way.
No, that's bad design. Unless there is a reason for it, other than
thoughtlessness on behalf of the designer.
One reason could be that an Adept's powered skill improvements don't
work in a no-magic zone. Either a permanent zone, or one tem****arily
created by a spellcaster.
Another could be that Adepts gain a "magic aura", pro****tional to how
much Magic they have spent on Powers. So that they light up, astrally,
can be sensed with Detect Magic spells. That sort of thing.
But the only reason that I've been informed of is so that Adepts can
eventually achieve kick-ass high attribute and skill values.
That's kinda okay. But it's rather irrelevant from a starting
character's perspective.
> I remeber when I first read GURPS, and found that an elf was just a
human
> with low-light vision and an extra point in DEX. Now that was
mathematically
> correct, but also way to boring.
Exactly. Elves should be much more different from Humans.
The same way an Adept with a powered-up Infiltration skill, or Climbing
skill, should be different from a character who has achieved his high
Infiltration or Climbing skill through mundane means - practice,
practice and more practice.
But it isn't. The game-mechanical effects are *exactly* the same.
> Both has their pros and cons. You either accept it, change the rules or
move
> on to an other set of RPG rules.
Is there some rule that forbids pointing out design errors in RPG systems?
>>In many cases, it seems to me as if Adept Powers are 100% functionally
>>equivalent to paying points for higher attributes or skill levels. In
>>other cases, they are functionally equivalent *except* that they cost
>>*more* - or *less*, in some other cases.
>
> That is true but some times Adept Powers can do things that the
equivalent
> skill/attribute/cyberware can't do, or they stack with the normal
Yes. The first is fine. There are all those powers for improved
Initiative and speed and so forth.
Stacking makes sense too, except that it seems so utterly irrelevant to
starting characters.
> skill/attribute/cyberware, or they simpley do it in a different way.
But that ways are only really different if the difference exists within
the game mechanics. Differences that exist only in our heads, but never
become expressed in the reality of the game world, are bollocks.
> And for that you might pay extra, or pay less.
Sure. Paying less for less is okay. But paying less for the same is
suspect.
>>Enhanced Perception costs 0.25 Magic per level. Each point in Magic
costs
>>10 character creation points. However, raising the Perception skill
costs
>>4 character creation points per level. Therefore, if your character is
an
>>Adept, you're better off buying Enhanced Perception than buying the
>>Perception skill.
>
> But you are even better off having both the Perception skill and
Enhanced
> Perception.
>
> A mundane human can at most have an intuition of 6 and perception 6,
giving
> a dice pool of 12. The adept can add anothe 6 dice with Enhanced
Perception
> for a total dice pool of 18.
Irrelevant for starting characters.
> But the cost is not a straight 2.5 BP per level. If you just buy the
Adept
> Quality it gives you your first point of Magic for free. Which means
that
> the first 4 levels of Enhanced Perception only costs you 5 BP = 1.25 BP
per
> level.
Can you spend all your Magic? I thought you had to have more than 0.0
Magic left?
But of course, you still have a point. If you buy Magic up to 5, it
costs a total of 45 points, and for that you have 4.75 magic to spend
(assuming I'm correct in thinking that one must retain 0.25 Magic
unused), which means that you pay 2.37 character creation points per
0.25 point of Adept Power.
> On the other hand if you have already used your first 5 points of magic
for
> something else. then you will end up paying 25 BP for the last point,
and
> thus pay 25 BP for 4 levels of Enhanced Perception = 6.25 BP per level.
I can't see anybody doing that, if the player just boosted skills and
permanently boosted attributes.
But of course there are other Adept Powers that may make it worthwhile
to go for a 6 at character creation. Just none that struck me as being
relevant for my burglar type Adept.
>>I'm not sure about Great Leap. It seems to me that you're better off
>>paying for a Gymnastics specialization in Jumping. That costs 2 points
and
>>gives you a +2 bonus on Jumping rolls. Great Leap costs 2.5 points and
>>gives you only a +1 bonus to Jumping. But of course, if you want more
than
>>your +2 specialiation, go ahead and take levels in Great Leap.
>
> Great Leap also add to your distance (or rather to your Quickness for
> figuring the distance). So you could say tha Great Leap is equivalent to
+1
> Quickness, which will cost you 10 BP (25 BP if it's the final pint), and
> thus make Great Leap cheaper by comparison.
But shouldn't one buy specialization first? And then only if that is
insufficient should one also buy Great Leap?
>>Improved Ability (i.e. skill) is worth taking for non-combat skills. To
>>improve a non-combat skill the normal way costs 4 points per +1, whereas
>>improving a non-combat skill via Adept Powers costs 2.5 points per +1.
In
>>many cases, you're better off starting with a Specialization on your
skill
>>(2 points buys you +2 to skill, specialized), but if you want more than
>>that, you should go for the Adept Power.
>
> Improved Ability is also th only way you can improve your skill past 6
(7
> with aptitude).
You can't do that with a Specialization?
[...]
>>Please carefully take note of my complaint: I cannot see anything in the
>>rules that make these Adept powers *feel* magical. They are
*functionally*
>>*equivalent* to non-magical character creation choices, i.e. spending of
>>your ordinary budget of 400 points.
>
> You are right. But many of the powers was first defined under SR1, and
was
> quite different. But with the streamlinig of SR2/SR3 and especially SR4,
> they now work a lot like an ordinary incraes to a skill/attribute, or
the
> equivalent cyberware.
>
> They are only magical in the SR universe, ruleswise they are not.
But if something is not in the rules, then it does not exist in the
reality of the game universe. It's just a delusion in the players' and
the GM's heads.
>>Adept Powers are at once a license to optimize (up to your Magic limit -
>>but from what I've skimmed you can get more Magic points later on, and
>>thus optimize further) *and* a trap for unwary players who may end up
>>paying more points than they should (specifically for Improved Ability
>>with combat skills, or if they waste their Magic on Improved Physical
>>Attribute).
>
>
> But again most of the Adept Powers can do things that you can't do with
BP,
> for example have a riting higher than normal. If you only use your Adept
> Points to make a normal Person, then you screw yourself.
Yes. That's why I'm complaining. I want to be able to spend Adept Points
to make my character an extraordinary person. Extraordinary at
infiltration and exfiltration, to be specific.
> Why buy +2 Strength for 20 BP, when you can buy Critical Strike for 0.25
> Magic = 2.5 BP?
No amount of Strength can help my "Ghost" Adept crack safes anyway, so
that is irrelevant.
> Why buy Killing Hands for 0.5 Magic = 5 BP, when you can buy a knife for
20
> nuyen (1 BP = 5000 nuyen) = 0.004 BP?
>
> Because Adept Powers can be hidden, turned on or off as you like, and
> because it's cool :-)
Yes, some of the Adept Powers are cool.
But others are decidedly un-cool. Hence my original post. I *demand*
coolness.
>>It this just downright *****y* rules design, or have I overlooked
>>something in the rules that makes the above mentioned Adept Powers
perform
>>in a way that is not functionally equivalent to abilities purchased via
>>regular character creation point expenditure?
>
> Some of the rules are ****y, that's for sure. But I don't think you can
> show me any RPG without any ****y rules.
No, especially not given that my definition of an RPG rules system
excludes 99% of the freeware systems on the web.
But that does not mean that one is not allowed to point out flawed rules.
> But as I wrote at the top, SR proberly isn't a game for you, especially
It's an RPG rules system, put on the market, offered for sale. One
therefore is entitled to demand that it live up to the standards that
apply to all RPG rules systems.
> since the Game part isn't it's biggest seller. It's the world, the
> characters, the megacorps, the dragons, the spirits, the cyberware, and
> everythig else, but surely not the rules.
But Adept magic isn't part of what makes Shadowrun a big seller?
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
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