"Peter Knutsen (usenet)" <peter@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> skrev i en meddelelse
news:44275e72$0$60782$157c6196@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> I'm confused by some of the point costs in Shadowrun 4th Edition.
> Specifically Adept Powers confuse me.
Hi Peter
I think I know how you prefer to play, and having played Shadowrun since
1989, I must say that I don't think you will like it.
The rules are not always logical, and not always percise. As you have
pointed out, several of the Adept Powers can be duplicated in more than
one
way, and typical for a different price, some cheaper, some more expensive.
But this not FFRE, and things don't have to match matematically. So it's
OK
to pay 4 BP for a skill bought the normal way, and pay 2.5 BP buying
Improved Ability for the same skill bought in a different way.
I remeber when I first read GURPS, and found that an elf was just a human
with low-light vision and an extra point in DEX. Now that was
mathematically
correct, but also way to boring.
Both has their pros and cons. You either accept it, change the rules or
move
on to an other set of RPG rules.
> In many cases, it seems to me as if Adept Powers are 100% functionally
> equivalent to paying points for higher attributes or skill levels. In
> other cases, they are functionally equivalent *except* that they cost
> *more* - or *less*, in some other cases.
That is true but some times Adept Powers can do things that the equivalent
skill/attribute/cyberware can't do, or they stack with the normal
skill/attribute/cyberware, or they simpley do it in a different way.
And for that you might pay extra, or pay less.
> Enhanced Perception costs 0.25 Magic per level. Each point in Magic
costs
> 10 character creation points. However, raising the Perception skill
costs
> 4 character creation points per level. Therefore, if your character is
an
> Adept, you're better off buying Enhanced Perception than buying the
> Perception skill.
But you are even better off having both the Perception skill and Enhanced
Perception.
A mundane human can at most have an intuition of 6 and perception 6,
giving
a dice pool of 12. The adept can add anothe 6 dice with Enhanced
Perception
for a total dice pool of 18.
But the cost is not a straight 2.5 BP per level. If you just buy the Adept
Quality it gives you your first point of Magic for free. Which means that
the first 4 levels of Enhanced Perception only costs you 5 BP = 1.25 BP
per
level.
On the other hand if you have already used your first 5 points of magic
for
something else. then you will end up paying 25 BP for the last point, and
thus pay 25 BP for 4 levels of Enhanced Perception = 6.25 BP per level.
> I'm not sure about Great Leap. It seems to me that you're better off
> paying for a Gymnastics specialization in Jumping. That costs 2 points
and
> gives you a +2 bonus on Jumping rolls. Great Leap costs 2.5 points and
> gives you only a +1 bonus to Jumping. But of course, if you want more
than
> your +2 specialiation, go ahead and take levels in Great Leap.
Great Leap also add to your distance (or rather to your Quickness for
figuring the distance). So you could say tha Great Leap is equivalent to
+1
Quickness, which will cost you 10 BP (25 BP if it's the final pint), and
thus make Great Leap cheaper by comparison.
> Improved Ability (i.e. skill) is worth taking for non-combat skills. To
> improve a non-combat skill the normal way costs 4 points per +1, whereas
> improving a non-combat skill via Adept Powers costs 2.5 points per +1.
In
> many cases, you're better off starting with a Specialization on your
skill
> (2 points buys you +2 to skill, specialized), but if you want more than
> that, you should go for the Adept Power.
Improved Ability is also th only way you can improve your skill past 6 (7
with aptitude).
> However, for combat skills, Improved Ability costs 5 points per +1,
> whereas if you buy the skill the mundane way it only costs 4 points per
> +1. Hence there's never any point in doing this. It's a waste of points.
Not if you want your skill to go higher than 6 (7 with aptitude). For that
you have to pay a bit extra.
> Improved Physical Attribute is neutral. You simply transfer points from
> Magic and to one or more of the physical attributes. The only reason not
> to do this is that you'd rather spend your Magic on something else.
After
> all, you have 400 character creation points to play with, but only 4 or
5
> or 6 Magic Points.
Just go ahead and initiate, and you will have as many points in Magic as
you
like.
Attributes are capped at 6 for humans (7 with exceptional attibute).
Improved Physical attribute can take that to 9 (10), which you can't do
with
normal BP, or even Karma.
> Please carefully take note of my complaint: I cannot see anything in the
> rules that make these Adept powers *feel* magical. They are
*functionally*
> *equivalent* to non-magical character creation choices, i.e. spending of
> your ordinary budget of 400 points.
You are right. But many of the powers was first defined under SR1, and was
quite different. But with the streamlinig of SR2/SR3 and especially SR4,
they now work a lot like an ordinary incraes to a skill/attribute, or the
equivalent cyberware.
They are only magical in the SR universe, ruleswise they are not.
> Adept Powers are at once a license to optimize (up to your Magic limit -
> but from what I've skimmed you can get more Magic points later on, and
> thus optimize further) *and* a trap for unwary players who may end up
> paying more points than they should (specifically for Improved Ability
> with combat skills, or if they waste their Magic on Improved Physical
> Attribute).
But again most of the Adept Powers can do things that you can't do with
BP,
for example have a riting higher than normal. If you only use your Adept
Points to make a normal Person, then you screw yourself.
Why buy +2 Strength for 20 BP, when you can buy Critical Strike for 0.25
Magic = 2.5 BP?
Why buy Killing Hands for 0.5 Magic = 5 BP, when you can buy a knife for
20
nuyen (1 BP = 5000 nuyen) = 0.004 BP?
Because Adept Powers can be hidden, turned on or off as you like, and
because it's cool :-)
> It this just downright *****y* rules design, or have I overlooked
> something in the rules that makes the above mentioned Adept Powers
perform
> in a way that is not functionally equivalent to abilities purchased via
> regular character creation point expenditure?
Some of the rules are ****y, that's for sure. But I don't think you can
show me any RPG without any ****y rules.
But as I wrote at the top, SR proberly isn't a game for you, especially
since the Game part isn't it's biggest seller. It's the world, the
characters, the megacorps, the dragons, the spirits, the cyberware, and
everythig else, but surely not the rules.
Lars
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