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Gaming > Debate > Re: Lethality o...
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Re: Lethality of events

by psychohist <psychohist@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > May 10, 2007 at 10:33 PM

John Morrow posts, in part:

  It is my understanding, not having played MMORPGs
  since the days of text MUDs, that (A) the "people"
  getting "hurt" are largely monsters or evil humans

I think this depends on the game.  Some games try to maintain that
situation; others less so.  In many quests in World of Warcraft, the
most popular game currently, one pretty much accepts most quests - if
one does - because the quest giver happens to be the first to talk to
the player character, not because his position is in any way morally
superior to the people he wants you to kill.

Actually, come to think of it, one of the races you can play in World
of Warcraft is undead.  One of their early quests involves feeding a
tainted apple to an unsuspecting prisoner in order to test a new
poison, and the race's entire starting area is set up along those
lines.  It's quite clear that they are evil - though half the people
that play them still manage to rationalize that away.

  and (B) PvP (the equivalent of one role-playing PC
  killing another PC) is a fairly complex issue that
  lots of people frown upon and lots of games limit,

It's not completely clear to me why it makes a difference whether the
victim is a player character.  It strikes me that it's more im****tant
whether it's a consensual or nonconsensual situation.

At the one extreme, there have been games where the griefers exploited
unintended hacks and bugs to more effectively inflict pain on their
victims, a rather nonconsensual situation.  At the other extreme,
there are battlegrounds where all the player characters on both sides
are there purely for the purpose of fighting each other; this is more
like the first person shooter situation, and it's completely
consensual.  There are various gradations in between.  There may be
situations beyond the consensual end of this, too, such as a chess
game, which is still at a very abstract level a simulation of a battle
where people are killed.

Where is the line between what's okay and what's not okay?  How much
does it have to do with consensuality, how much with the behavior
****trayed, and how much with the player's enjoyment or nonenjoyment of
it?

  and (C) the social aspect of sitting around a table
  and looking the other players or the GM in the eye
  is missing.

The social aspect is very much present; the main thing that affects
game loyalty is the social ties players form with one another.  On the
"looking in the eye" part:

  First, you don't look other real people in the eye
  while playing a first person shooter, so there is
  moral distancing

Why is this an improvement?  It strikes me that in the situation from
a few weeks ago where someone shot and killed a whole bunch of people
with a sniper rifle, with surgical precision from a distance,
sometimes when they were mere silhouettes in windows, the culprit was
very much as culpable as a mass murderer who uses a knife from up
close.  In fact, I worry more about the sniper more, since it's much
less amenable to a victim's defusing the situation.

  Second, you are (to my knowledge) killing other
  combatants (people who are there to kill you) and
  not civilians (or innocent NPCs) because your
  character thinks that killing helpless or innocent
  people is fun.

This seems valid to me, and it applies to battlegrounds in online
roleplaying games as well.  I think it's another aspect of
consensuality:  it's consensual on the character level, as well as on
the player level.

  Third, the voice and text message systems in many
  competative first person shooters make it very clear
  that you haven't really killed or eliminated a
  person when you kill your opponent.

And yet, they can serve somewhat the opposite purpose in an online
roleplaying game; inflicting and maximizing psychological pain by
taunting one's opponent is such an issue in some of these games that
many of the games have moved to a faction based design where you can't
talk to the people you fight, and you can only fight people you can't
talk to.

  Fourth, while they allow killing of other characters,
  they don't generally emphasize pain or violence nor
  do they allow you to torture, violate, or
  humiliate other cahracters.  Role-playing games are
  much more flexible in that characters can do (or
  at least try to do) anything that the players
  describe.  A tabletop role-playing game (or game
  engine) doesn't need to have rules to handle torture
  in a detailed manner in order for the players
  and GM to play out such things in detail.

Most online roleplaying games have a freeform emote capability that
works perfectly well in this regard.  Even when that isn't available -
say when the victim is on a different faction where the game mechanics
prevent communication - players are quite inventive about improvising
ways to make what they are acting out clear, particularly with regards
to rape.

I don't think computer gaming is any different from tabletop gaming in
this regard.

Warren J. Dew
 




 36 Posts in Topic:
Re: Lethality of events
gleichman <fox1_217@[E  2007-05-01 12:56:29 
Re: Lethality of events
Ed Chauvin IV <edcfour  2007-05-01 16:35:54 
Re: Lethality of events
Will in New Haven <bil  2007-05-06 16:45:31 
Re: Lethality of events
Ed Chauvin IV <edcfour  2007-05-06 21:43:36 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-06 20:49:01 
Re: Lethality of events
Ed Chauvin IV <edcfour  2007-05-07 09:40:46 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-07 07:39:34 
Re: Lethality of events
Ed Chauvin IV <edcfour  2007-05-07 09:40:46 
Re: Standards of behaviour
Will in New Haven <bil  2007-05-09 10:04:39 
Re: Standards of behaviour
gleichman <fox1_217@[E  2007-05-09 10:13:07 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-09 21:50:14 
Re: Lethality of events
Ed Chauvin IV <edcfour  2007-05-10 09:31:04 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-09 21:56:48 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-09 22:00:12 
Re: Lethality of events
Gary Johnson <zzjohnsg  2007-05-10 13:46:20 
Re: Standards of behaviour
Will in New Haven <bil  2007-05-10 07:51:50 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-11 00:35:39 
Re: Lethality of events
Ed Chauvin IV <edcfour  2007-05-11 04:39:12 
Re: Lethality of events
R. G. 'Stumpy' Marsh <  2007-05-11 20:39:15 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-11 12:14:13 
Re: Standards of behaviour
gleichman <fox1_217@[E  2007-05-11 12:27:00 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-12 10:12:34 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-12 10:23:39 
Re: Standards of behaviour
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-24 19:47:11 
Re: Lethality of events
Will in New Haven <bil  2007-05-09 18:25:38 
Re: Lethality of events
Ben Finney <bignose+ha  2007-05-10 12:00:13 
Re: Lethality of events
Ben Finney <bignose+ha  2007-05-10 13:53:21 
Re: Lethality of events
gleichman <fox1_217@[E  2007-05-10 06:51:17 
Re: Lethality of events
Ben Finney <bignose+ha  2007-05-11 19:44:50 
Re: Standards of behaviour
psychohist <psychohist  2007-05-23 19:27:40 
Re: Standards of behaviour
dalamb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2007-05-24 03:41:36 
Re: Lethality of events
gleichman <fox1_217@[E  2007-05-07 06:51:25 
Re: Lethality of events
psychohist <psychohist  2007-05-10 22:33:18 
Re: Lethality of events
"gleichman" <  2007-05-11 05:51:55 
Re: Lethality of events
John Morrow <morrow@[E  2007-05-11 01:29:05 
Re: Lethality of events
Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-h  2007-05-11 13:50:36 

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