Re: mechanics of surprise

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:44:53 +0000 (UTC),
mkkuhner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:

>In article <nortt21s3vsqp0khff2q9v6r221n43qbfp@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
>Erol K. Bayburt  <ErolB1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>>>In #1 I would feel quite perturbed if the unaware foe got to shoot
>>>one of us before we got to shoot him. 
>
>>Query: Is that "I would feel quite perturbed if the unaware foe got to
>>shoot before the *first* shot from our side (but it's OK if the foe
>>happens to be fast/lucky enough to shoot second, after our fastest guy
>>shoots but before the rest of us)"? Or is it "I would feel quite
>>perturbed if the unaware foe got to shoot before *all* of the guys on
>>our side got our first shots in"?
>
>I'd certainly feel perturbed if the enemy went before any of the
>ambushers, but I could live with him going before some of the
>ambushers--it's less realistic, but a lot more survivable, and that's
>im****tant to me.
>
>I really dislike "ambushes" where the ambushed side ends up going
>before any of the ambushers, unless a successful ambush-spotting
>roll is involved.  

OK, then the idea I posted elsethread of giving the *victims* of an
ambush partial actions during the first round won't work for you. 

When using the standard rule of a free round of partial actions for
the ambushers, the thing that annoys me isn't that some characters
want to use full-round actions, but that getting surprise while losing
initiative is worse than not getting surprise and then winning
initiative. And that getting surprise *and* winning initiative is just
too good. 

One idea is to treat the ambush-targets' initiative rolls as
'blackjack' rolls - if a target rolls better initiative than the
best-initiative ambusher, then the target loses his action for the
surprise round but gets to keep his high initiative on subsequent
rounds (i.e. he gets to act before any of the ambushers get a second
action on round two). If the target rolls worse than the
best-initiative attacker, then the target gets to act normally in the
surprise round. So the best result would be to get an initiative
number just below the fastest ambusher, but above the rest of the
ambushers. 

As a consolation prize, you might allow an ambush-target who rolls too
high to not be flatfooted during the surprise round, or at least to
not be flat-footed after the first attack by the fastest ambusher. 

>This is a lot easier in a system with a low speed of decision, because
>then you can simply give the free round, and it will not be an
>overwhelming advantage.  Mid- to high-level D&Dv3 is not such a system,
>though.  

Yes and yes. My current working theory is that D&D spells are
excessively powerful, and that this has warped the rest of the system.
In the past I've groused that "xD&D doesn't have wizards; it has
artillery pieces *disguised* as wizards." The cool stuff in 3e made me
forget this, for a time, but it's still a problem: 

o The spells have to be keep rare, rationed out to the spellcasters.
Which makes spellcasters vary wildly in powress depending on how many
spells they've got left for the day. This also causes problems as
spellcasters get to mid to high levels where spells are merely rare vs
low levels where they're ultra-precious. 

o The power of the spells make them exceptionally well suited to
"alpha strike" tactics. 

o Non-spellcasters have to be given heaps of magic items and/or
powerful & outre abilities in order to remain competetive at mid to
high levels. (And even that doesn't always work - high level
non-spellcasters tend to fall behind. Worse, even weak spellcasters
(rangers, paladins, multiclass wizards or sorcerers, etc.) fall behind
in power.)

I would dearly like to see a d20 game where magic was common without
spells being powerful - that did not cater to the "low magic = rare
magic" meme -  and that explicitly and deliberately did not try to be
power-level compatable with D&D. Iron Heroes sounds interesting, but
as I understand it, it does try to do "high level heroes without magic
items that just as powerful as the standard D&D ones with their
standard loadout of magic items." 


-- 
Erol K. Bayburt
ErolB1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]