I shall now attempt to extract my mouth from my foot. Be amazed! ;)
In article <01f9adb14e.zen44412@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
Simon Smith <simon_smith_news@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> In message <ericp06-022876.15365207022007@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Eric P." <ericp06@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > In article <1170870217.425114.167730@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
> > "psychohist" <psychohist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> OK:
>
> --> If you have a setting where no gods exist, there's no sense in
having
> --> any religions in that setting, either.
>
> No, I still flatly disagree.
>
> Even in the absence of gods, people still have spiritual needs. True
> atheists are the exception even nowadays. If there are no gods, and
nobody
> has felt the need to invent any - which is rather unlikely IMV - a world
> will still have its holy men and mystics. These will usually be people
with
> great wisdom and spirituality and/or who are able to attain a suitably
> altered state of mind (i.e. via drugs and other means). There's also
bound
> to be a somewhat larger of numbers of fakers, charlatans and the
deluded.
> But the im****tant point is that they won't /all/ be frauds, even if most
> are.
You have a point here, one that I missed earlier. Yes, belief systems
can emerge among cultures even in a world where no deities exist, but in
that case, no divine power can be accessed.
Interesing that you would say people have spiritual needs even in the
absence of gods, because in order to have spiritual needs, one must have
a spirit. In order to have a spirit, that spirit must have been placed
in the body. Only a creator deity can do this. Therefore, if a person
has spiritual needs, there must be a deity responsible...somewhere.
> Such people, particularly the handful who are truly enlightened, will,
by
> word and example tell or show others how to live their lives. Such
advice
> still works even in a setting where gods do not exist. And the people
who
> are wise enough to provide such advice will be justly respected and even
> revered as exceptional people. Well, they are. And their teachings will
be
> recorded and passed on, and others will make honest attempts to follow
such
> teachings.
Yes, these teachings have value in enabling people to set their moral
compasses.
> So even without gods, a fantasy setting is still likely to build up a
body
> of holy teachings from these people. They will be called saints,
prophets,
> gurus, or other like names, some of them will study and build on the
> teachings of their predecessors, and a genuine religion will build
itself
> from the ground up even in settings where nobody believes in the
existence
> of gods.
>
> *I* could happily follow a religion like that, and I'm an atheist. A
> spiritual religion can still work, even if doesn't have a god.
I suppose that, in a setting where psionics or other paranormal
abilities are used, that power could be mistaken for divine power, or
people could use it to pretend that they're accessing divine power. Many
possibilities there.
- E
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