On Sat, 3 May 2008 17:02:32 -0700 (PDT), Histriadogsilver
<andjelka.richter@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>On May 4, 1:28 am, Stig Holmquist <stigfjor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 May 2008 10:53:59 -0700 (PDT), Histriadogsilver
>>
>>
>>
>> <andjelka.rich...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >On May 3, 2:06 am, OldPalooka <ashut...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> On May 2, 5:19 am, Stig Holmquist <stigfjor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> >> > On Thu, 1 May 2008 18:30:36 -0700 (PDT), Andrew
<agump...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> >> > >On May 1, 4:42 pm, Stig Holmquist <stigfjor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>> >> > >> On Thu, 1 May 2008 14:49:25 -0700 (PDT), Andrew
<agump...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >> > >> wrote:
>>
>> >> > >> >On May 1, 4:35 am, Stig Holmquist <stigfjor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>> >> > >> >> Forty years ago two oustanding bridge players, Alvin Roth
and Jeff
>> >> > >> >> Rubens, wrote the book 'Modern Bridge Bidding Complete".
>> >> > >> >> It featured the Roth Point count Method.
>>
>> >> > >> >> This method is similar to the British combination
distributuin count.
>> >> > >> >> It is based on the standard Work point count for HCP plus
Goren's
>> >> > >> >> short suit count of 1,2 and 3 for ddoubletons, singletons
and voids
>> >> > >> >> resp. but also adds points for suits longer than five cards.
>> >> > >> >> Specifically it counts 1 pt for each card over five for any
major suit
>> >> > >> >> but counts such length points only for "good" minor suits
having at
>> >> > >> >> least two of the top three honor cards.
>>
>> >> > >> >> Has any r.g.b. member ever used this method and if so, what
are its
>> >> > >> >> shortcomngs? It specifically does not count quick tricks.Why
is this
>> >> > >> >> method never mentioned any more?
>>
>> >> > >> >> Stig Holmquist
>>
>> >> > >> >The same things that are wrong with all the antiquated point
count
>> >> > >> >methods you have brought up here:
>>
>> >> > >> >1. The HCP values used are inaccurate
>>
>> >> > >> >2. The system pretends that high cards have the same value in
suits
>> >> > >> >and in no trumps
>>
>> >> > >> >3. The distributional values used are inaccurate
>>
>> >> > >> >4. The system pretends that length in any suit is of equal
value, when
>> >> > >> >major suit length is worth more than minor suit length
>>
>> >> > >> Yes, you focused on the most glaring shortcoming of short suit
counts.
>> >> > >> The primary goal of bidding is to locate an 8-fit in a major
suit. Thus
>> >> > >> I can see no value in shortness in the majors.
>>
>> >> > >Amend that to "little" or "significantly less" value and I agree
with
>> >> > >you.
>>
>> >> > >> If anything it is a
>> >> > >> deficit and should not be used to add value to a hand. I would
go as
>> >> > >> far as saying count no length points for minor suits for
opening bids.
>> >> > >> Depend solely on HCPs when opening a minor suit bid. Your HCP
is the
>> >> > >> only asset you have. E.g. holding 5-5 in the minors would today
add 2
>> >> > >> points to the HCP count but seems to be an overvaluation.
>>
>> >> > >Actual in R+R wouldn't you add 5 points for that shape? 2 for the
>> >> > >singleton, 1 for the doubleton and 1 for the 5th card in each
minor?
>> >> > >But yes, when you think of your goal as getting to a game
contract,
>> >> > >then adding 5 distribution points seems excessive.
>>
>> >> > >Never counting for major suit shortness distribution would be too
>> >> > >much. For example as opener suppose you hold: x, x, AQxxxx,
KJxxx. A
>> >> > >minor game is cold opposite a dull 7-count: xxx, xxxx, Kxxx, Ax.
So
>> >> > >the distribution clearly should be counted.
>> >> > >When teaching bridge to beginners, which is my main concern here,
I don't worrry about freak deals,
>>
>> >> > such as your 1-1-6-5 hand above. By freak deals I mean hands with
less
>> >> > than 1 per 10 000 frequecies. As a player of modest ability I
would
>> >> > probably apply the Bergen count of 20(22) to that hand and open
1D.
>> >> > By std. ACBL valuation the hand is worth 13 points and is an
opener.
>>
>> >> > By the Roth count is is worth 15 points, 10 HCP + 1 for length
+2x2
>> >> > for singletons and would seem to be fit for an opening bid. Thus
1/3
>> >> > of the total point value is in distribution, which seems
excessive.
>>
>> >> > Stig.
>>
>> >> > >But in more normal cases, counting for major suit shortness seems
>> >> > >dubious. With borderline opening values like this: x, Kxx, Kxxx,
AJxxx
>> >> > >game potential is relatively low and there will be rebid
problems--I
>> >> > >would pass. Change the hand to this: AJxxx, Kxxx, Kxx, x and its
an
>> >> > >automatic opener. You could represent that difference by counting
for
>> >> > >the singleton in the second example but not in the first.
>>
>> >> > >However, I am not sure how to formulate when to count/not count
as a
>> >> > >clear rule for students. Another way to describe a rule for
students
>> >> > >is to set different thresholds for opening in a minor or a major.
For
>> >> > >example, perhaps a major suit can be opened when the combined HCP
and
>> >> > >DP is 13+, while a minor suit opening requires either an HCP of
13+
>> >> > >HCP or a combined HCP + DP of 15+.
>>
>> >> > >Andrew
>>
>> >> After a diamond fit is revealed Goren would reevaluate opener to 17,
>> >> and responder to 9. Yet it is almost a claimer for 5D with *more
than
>> >> half the tricks won by x's*(normally requiring 28-9 combined Goren
>> >> points for a ~50% play). What is a distributional count supposed to
>> >> do if not help you estimate what your x's are worth in trick taking
>> >> potential. The reason this hand is only worth 1/3 of its weight in
>> >> distribution points before any others have bid is that you normally
>> >> don't buy such a fine fit; you will only be able to take 3-4 tricks
>> >> with x's instead of 6. But if you take 3 tricks with high cards and
4
>> >> tricks with x's, how much of your count should be reckoned as
>> >> distributional?
>> >> Yet you may end up defending with a shaky 2 QT, and partner may
never
>> >> stop bidding majors, so the original count [estimate of value] has
>> >> some built in conservatism, not excessive exuberance like you would
>> >> represent it.
>>
>> >> You hold S:AKQJT98765432. Perhaps you judge your suit is self
>> >> sufficient in advance, so you get 10 HCP, 9 DP (3 voids), and 17 LP
(1
>> >> for 5th, 2 each for other 8) using Goren's count. Much more than
>> >> Roth, n'est-ce-pas?. Do the 70% distributional points seem like too
>> >> many?
>>
>> >> == Bill Shutts
>>
>> >For the record, RP points are getting to the right estimation even
>> >with this hand: AKQJT98765432 = 3+2+1+ ( 0.5 unnecessary) + 3 voids or
>> >9 points + 9 additional points for obviously working voids = 6.5 + 18
>> >= 24.5 RP's or 13 tricks ( 24 RP's are enough for 13 tricks). It is
>> >just amazing how a simple hand evaluation method can have a good
>> >estimation on so many hands and yet not recognized.
>>
>> >Boris
>>
>> So the Roth method helps you when you don't need help. Big deal. Maybe
>> it also helps with other highly distributional hands since it counts
>> point for shortness.
>>
>> But how does it help with balance hands, which make up 46.7 % of all
>> hand patterns? Wher does it give you the needed 14 points? E.g. take a
>> 4-3-3-3 hand with thee Aces or a 5-3-3-2 hand with AK in one suit and
>> A in a second suit. Where do you find 14 pts?
>>
>> I teach beginners to add HCP + QT +LP for a total point count and if
>> it ccomes to 15 they have an opener. It works for every hand I can
>> imagine. Is my imagination missing something?
>>
>> Stig
>
>It looks like I will have to rename those once again in RiP points,
>since no one seems to be interested really:-)
>
>Boris
I thought this post was about Roth point cont not Richert or whatever
his name is. I've never heard of him. Stich to the subjedt at hand.
Stig
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