On Thu, 1 May 2008 18:30:36 -0700 (PDT), Andrew <agumperz@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On May 1, 4:42 pm, Stig Holmquist <stigfjor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 1 May 2008 14:49:25 -0700 (PDT), Andrew <agump...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On May 1, 4:35 am, Stig Holmquist <stigfjor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> Forty years ago two oustanding bridge players, Alvin Roth and Jeff
>> >> Rubens, wrote the book 'Modern Bridge Bidding Complete".
>> >> It featured the Roth Point count Method.
>>
>> >> This method is similar to the British combination distributuin
count.
>> >> It is based on the standard Work point count for HCP plus Goren's
>> >> short suit count of 1,2 and 3 for ddoubletons, singletons and voids
>> >> resp. but also adds points for suits longer than five cards.
>> >> Specifically it counts 1 pt for each card over five for any major
suit
>> >> but counts such length points only for "good" minor suits having at
>> >> least two of the top three honor cards.
>>
>> >> Has any r.g.b. member ever used this method and if so, what are its
>> >> shortcomngs? It specifically does not count quick tricks.Why is this
>> >> method never mentioned any more?
>>
>> >> Stig Holmquist
>>
>> >The same things that are wrong with all the antiquated point count
>> >methods you have brought up here:
>>
>> >1. The HCP values used are inaccurate
>>
>> >2. The system pretends that high cards have the same value in suits
>> >and in no trumps
>>
>> >3. The distributional values used are inaccurate
>>
>> >4. The system pretends that length in any suit is of equal value, when
>> >major suit length is worth more than minor suit length
>>
>> Yes, you focused on the most glaring shortcoming of short suit counts.
>> The primary goal of bidding is to locate an 8-fit in a major suit. Thus
>> I can see no value in shortness in the majors.
>
>Amend that to "little" or "significantly less" value and I agree with
>you.
>
>
>> If anything it is a
>> deficit and should not be used to add value to a hand. I would go as
>> far as saying count no length points for minor suits for opening bids.
>> Depend solely on HCPs when opening a minor suit bid. Your HCP is the
>> only asset you have. E.g. holding 5-5 in the minors would today add 2
>> points to the HCP count but seems to be an overvaluation.
>
>Actual in R+R wouldn't you add 5 points for that shape? 2 for the
>singleton, 1 for the doubleton and 1 for the 5th card in each minor?
>But yes, when you think of your goal as getting to a game contract,
>then adding 5 distribution points seems excessive.
>
>Never counting for major suit shortness distribution would be too
>much. For example as opener suppose you hold: x, x, AQxxxx, KJxxx. A
>minor game is cold opposite a dull 7-count: xxx, xxxx, Kxxx, Ax. So
>the distribution clearly should be counted.
>When teaching bridge to beginners, which is my main concern here, I don't
worrry about freak deals,
such as your 1-1-6-5 hand above. By freak deals I mean hands with less
than 1 per 10 000 frequecies. As a player of modest ability I would
probably apply the Bergen count of 20(22) to that hand and open 1D.
By std. ACBL valuation the hand is worth 13 points and is an opener.
By the Roth count is is worth 15 points, 10 HCP + 1 for length +2x2
for singletons and would seem to be fit for an opening bid. Thus 1/3
of the total point value is in distribution, which seems excessive.
Stig.
>But in more normal cases, counting for major suit shortness seems
>dubious. With borderline opening values like this: x, Kxx, Kxxx, AJxxx
>game potential is relatively low and there will be rebid problems--I
>would pass. Change the hand to this: AJxxx, Kxxx, Kxx, x and its an
>automatic opener. You could represent that difference by counting for
>the singleton in the second example but not in the first.
>
>However, I am not sure how to formulate when to count/not count as a
>clear rule for students. Another way to describe a rule for students
>is to set different thresholds for opening in a minor or a major. For
>example, perhaps a major suit can be opened when the combined HCP and
>DP is 13+, while a minor suit opening requires either an HCP of 13+
>HCP or a combined HCP + DP of 15+.
>
>
>Andrew
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