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Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?

by Bob Lipton <boblipton@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > May 1, 2008 at 08:58 PM

Histriadogsilver wrote:
> On May 1, 1:35 pm, Stig Holmquist <stigfjor...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Forty years ago two oustanding bridge players, Alvin Roth and Jeff
>> Rubens, wrote the book 'Modern Bridge Bidding Complete".
>> It featured the Roth Point count Method.
>>
>> This method is similar to the British combination distributuin count.
>> It is based on the standard Work  point count for HCP plus Goren's
>> short suit count of 1,2 and 3 for ddoubletons, singletons and voids
>> resp. but also adds points for suits longer than five cards.
>> Specifically it counts 1 pt for each card over five for any major suit
>> but counts such length points only for "good" minor suits having at
>> least two  of the top three honor cards.
>>
>> Has any r.g.b. member ever used this method and if so, what are its
>> shortcomngs? It specifically does not count quick tricks.Why is this
>> method never mentioned any more?
>>
>> Stig Holmquist
> 
> Re-evaluation is where things fall apart. There is no aggressive hand
> evaluation that can cope with huge negative adjustments, fortunately
> this happens rarely and much more often being aggressive pays off in a
> way of reaching distributional games and slams.

I

I sort of disagree with this statement.  If you mean that people rarely 
revise their hands downward in the light of the bidding, I agree.   If 
you mean they rarely have the op****tunity, I strongly disagree.

I can't count the number of times I have seen righty deal and with, say, 
- AJTxxx x AQxxxx open a heart, thinking that if only partner has a bit 
of a fit, he may be in a slam. He has a four-loser hand, after all and 
if it weren't a 2-suiter, could be opened 2C, but he's a sound player. 
So he opens 1 Heart and what happens next?

Partner holds something like AJTxxx - KQ9xxx x and is very happy.  he 
has a 4-loser hand too, which means that he is mere inches from a grand 
slam.  Does it occur to him that partner has promised at least five 
hearts and that, therefore,  about five of partner's putative points 
will be worthless to him? -- I should note that altough he would open 
this hand light in first seat and expects his partner to open light, 
somehow, when partner opens, he never visualizes a hand like this.  He 
sees, in his mind's eye, KQxx 65432 AJx Ax.  So, in order to give 
partner a chance to show his magnificent spade sup****t, and because they 
aren't playing a variation that forces him to bid 1NT with a spade suit, 
he bids a nice, moderate 1 Spade. Perhaps his next call will be 4NT, 
asking for aces -- might want to be in 7NT after all -- and perhaps it 
will be a shocking 6 Clubs.


Now opener is happy.  Partner has enough to respond -- it never, like 
Mr. Smug, occurs to him to visualize a void until he sees it -- Instead, 
he is busy stuffing useful honors into partner's hand and tryjing to 
figure out whether to bid 2 clubs or three clubs. Eventually he decides 
to bid 2 clubs, since it allows him to show his powerful shape.  True, 
partner will not hold 4 hearts, most likely, but he might hold KJX  Or 
four clubs!  Or even five!  It's clear he must hold a lot of points: 
the opponents haven't said anything but pass.  The old farts.

Now responder comes back into the picture.  Opener has shown where nine 
of his thirteen -- or, on RGB, 14 -- cards are.  This leave a shortage 
of cards in his suits, but he remains hopeful.  He doesn't do anything 
foolish like start devaluing his hand  -- a nice invitational 2 Spades 
wouldn't be right.  Instead he has to choose between 2 and 3 diamonds. 
And since 2 diamonds would be FSF, he chooses 3 diamonds.


Let us return to opener.   He is starting to get worried, but consoles 
himself:  partner is about to bid the three-card sup****t in whichever of 
opener's suit he has -- a nice, lively hand.  Should he bid blackwood 
and try for the slam or be conservative?  No matter:  he has an easy bid 
of 3 hearts.


Now responder is starting to get worried.  Eventually, they make their 
way to a nice, conservative contract of 3NT -- there's a bit of a 
misfit, but things will turn out ok.


At least until the old idiot to the 3NT caller's right doubles.  And you 
start rescuing each other to the sounds of endless doubles.  Or you 
don't.  Anyway, you drift down a comfortable 1100, -- somehow partner 
didn't respect your takeout of his club takeout and so you wound up in 
5Dx, and you could have been -500, but the hook didn't work and neither 
did the endplay -- dummy was squeezed -- and comfort yourself with the 
sage observation that it's just another 0.


Now, all of these problems could be solved by simply revaling your hand 
downward when you begin to catch sight of a misfit -- but somehow, you 
never do.  Which is why I disagree with you somewhat.

Bob
 




 66 Posts in Topic:
What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-01 07:35:30 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-01 05:27:52 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Kevin Podsiadlik <KPod  2008-05-01 13:44:32 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
paulhigh@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-01 07:22:20 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Otis Bricker <obricker  2008-05-01 11:32:46 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-01 09:39:50 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
OldPalooka <ashutts1@[  2008-05-01 10:33:02 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-01 10:57:56 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-01 14:55:26 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Andrew <agumperz@[EMAI  2008-05-01 18:45:30 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
StevieTee <stevts@[EMA  2008-05-01 11:57:23 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-01 16:14:28 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
gearem@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-01 17:54:07 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
"raija d" <m  2008-05-02 07:03:20 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Andrew <agumperz@[EMAI  2008-05-01 14:49:25 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl  2008-05-01 18:42:07 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-01 19:42:14 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-01 16:48:23 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Andrew <agumperz@[EMAI  2008-05-01 18:30:36 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl  2008-05-02 01:07:09 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-02 08:19:38 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-04 05:26:28 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-04 10:49:28 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-04 18:37:24 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Bob Lipton <boblipton@  2008-05-04 19:12:09 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-05 06:29:00 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Andrew <agumperz@[EMAI  2008-05-01 19:47:03 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-01 19:56:09 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Andrew <agumperz@[EMAI  2008-05-02 01:35:15 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl  2008-05-02 15:12:44 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-04 08:04:15 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-04 09:39:46 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-04 10:01:18 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
OldPalooka <ashutts1@[  2008-05-05 06:19:53 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-02 08:25:46 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Andrew <agumperz@[EMAI  2008-05-02 12:53:00 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl  2008-05-02 16:40:25 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-03 06:32:01 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl  2008-05-03 12:32:11 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
OldPalooka <ashutts1@[  2008-05-02 17:06:27 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-03 10:53:59 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-03 19:28:49 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-03 16:53:08 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-03 17:02:32 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-03 20:44:07 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-03 17:46:40 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Andrew <agumperz@[EMAI  2008-05-03 18:31:57 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-04 07:03:49 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
StevieTee <stevts@[EMA  2008-05-04 00:52:37 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-04 07:05:54 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
"raija d" <m  2008-05-04 08:45:47 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-04 05:32:08 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-04 05:40:58 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-04 14:22:52 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-01 16:21:40 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Bob Lipton <boblipton@  2008-05-01 20:58:51 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Histriadogsilver <andj  2008-05-01 18:20:20 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Bill Jacobs <bill.jaco  2008-05-02 01:04:38 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
"raija d" <m  2008-05-01 18:27:17 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Chris <chriswiggins@[E  2008-05-03 21:43:59 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-03 22:49:56 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl  2008-05-04 03:43:18 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Bob Lipton <boblipton@  2008-05-04 08:12:33 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-06 09:20:00 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
henrysun909@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-05-06 07:49:19 
Re: What's wrong with the Roth point count?
Stig Holmquist <stigfj  2008-05-06 12:50:42 

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tan12V112 Sun Jul 20 0:47:36 CDT 2008.