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Gaming > Abstract (perfect information, pure strategy) > Re: The Future ...
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Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential heresy

by Harald Korneliussen <vintermann@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Apr 5, 2008 at 11:25 AM

On Apr 5, 7:14 am, richardhut...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

> What will be interesting is if you start doing games where players can
> fundamentally alter the game rules to hinder their opponent, and then
> challenge the AI to do that.

Do you mean inside the game? If so, that's just another rule for the
game. You can define the movement of the chess pieces in terms of rule
changes, if you really want to. I don't understand why you care about
this.

Or do you mean outside the game? Then it's politics, and using
politics to redefine the game as to "hinder your opponent" is just an
ugly metagame I'm not interested in playing - or writing an AI for.

But for AI for a game with "rules that change" (or more properly,
there is one position in the game which has an infinite number of
possible moves), that can be done. MC programs in principle need only
a description of the game in order to play it, these descriptions can
be arbitrarily large.

I recently learned that Cameron Browne (game designer and author of
"Hex Strategy" and "Connection Games") has already done this,
developed a language to describe games and and MC/UCT player that can
play them well. He used it to evolve the game of Yavalath.

There are games which are hard for MC prgrams. There are games which
are easy for MC programs, but which are even easier for humans, like
Go. But this proves nothing. I'm sure it would be easy to evolve an
anti-human game with Browne's system. Indeed, I suspect the computer
will play better on most large randomly designed rulesets.
 




 157 Posts in Topic:
The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential heresy f
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 09:43:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Sanny <softtanks@[EMAI  2008-04-02 09:56:13 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Nick Wedd <nick@[EMAIL  2008-04-02 18:15:39 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-02 17:22:30 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Sanny <softtanks@[EMAI  2008-04-02 10:27:40 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-02 12:09:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Erich Schneider <erich  2008-04-03 10:49:18 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 13:49:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 14:10:20 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-02 21:10:59 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 14:20:56 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 14:48:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 14:50:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"David Kane" &l  2008-04-02 15:14:53 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-02 18:03:31 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-02 18:07:17 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-02 18:19:37 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-02 20:51:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 22:57:50 
Arimaa / Re: The Future of Chess ...
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-03 00:41:05 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 03:22:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 20:10:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 20:19:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 20:24:06 
Re: Arimaa / Re: The Future of Chess ...
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-03 13:56:23 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-03 14:02:09 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Chris Mattern <syscjm@  2008-04-03 17:28:43 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 23:16:47 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Phil Carmody <thefatph  2008-04-04 11:04:27 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 15:13:30 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 15:15:57 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 15:29:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 22:52:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 23:19:10 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-03 18:12:52 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-03 18:22:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-04 14:00:57 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 19:13:14 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 19:30:11 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"David Kane" &l  2008-04-03 20:22:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-03 23:57:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"David Kane" &l  2008-04-04 09:42:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-04 00:27:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-04 01:18:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Ed Murphy <emurphy42@[  2008-04-05 03:55:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-04 01:26:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-04 02:33:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-04 02:39:52 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-04 03:03:20 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-04 04:44:57 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-04 04:47:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-04 14:09:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-04 14:43:06 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-04 10:38:07 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-04 10:43:20 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-04 12:33:54 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Christopher Dearlove <  2008-04-04 21:25:24 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-04 15:32:39 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 21:50:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:01:48 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:12:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:14:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:17:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:38:43 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Ed Murphy <emurphy42@[  2008-04-05 04:53:33 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:49:17 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 02:43:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 02:48:10 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 02:52:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Nick Wedd <nick@[EMAIL  2008-04-05 13:49:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
SBD <DrDowd@[EMAIL PRO  2008-04-05 06:49:42 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 07:33:21 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 07:36:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 09:12:09 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 09:17:47 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 09:51:01 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 09:55:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"Chess One" <  2008-04-05 13:13:18 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-05 17:28:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 09:58:39 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 10:01:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-05 17:16:43 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-05 11:00:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 11:03:45 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-05 17:50:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-05 11:25:48 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 13:46:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 13:55:53 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 14:03:08 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-05 15:45:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 16:31:11 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 16:34:37 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 16:59:52 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:13:07 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:17:15 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:20:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:24:56 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:31:50 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Nick Wedd <nick@[EMAIL  2008-04-06 08:44:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 01:46:24 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 02:14:56 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-06 08:21:09 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-06 08:41:49 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 09:05:21 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-06 11:07:11 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 11:35:08 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-06 20:25:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-06 21:04:23 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-06 21:13:31 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-06 14:40:35 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 19:32:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 19:45:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-06 21:20:39 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-06 21:21:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-06 21:28:24 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-06 21:58:15 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-07 00:23:14 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-07 08:19:13 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-07 18:05:32 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-13 22:52:01 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-13 23:15:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-15 03:19:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
jsavard@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-15 11:43:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Nick Wedd <nick@[EMAIL  2008-04-15 12:06:22 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
jsavard@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-15 11:44:12 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-04-17 15:16:49 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Rich Hutnik <richardhu  2008-04-17 15:23:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
anw@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (A  2008-04-18 00:59:45 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-04-18 15:09:17 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-17 19:18:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
John Bailey <john_bail  2008-04-18 09:40:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-18 17:15:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
John Bailey <john_bail  2008-04-18 22:18:01 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-04-18 21:34:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-19 07:27:50 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
John Bailey <john_bail  2008-04-19 08:15:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-04-19 19:23:12 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Bernier <david25  2008-04-19 17:55:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
anw@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (A  2008-04-18 17:09:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Rich Hutnik <richardhu  2008-04-17 22:26:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-04-18 15:24:48 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Denis Feldmann <feldma  2008-04-18 16:51:04 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-19 19:07:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"jeremy.p.spinrad@[E  2008-04-19 20:18:33 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Christopher Dearlove <  2008-04-20 12:06:48 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Christopher Dearlove <  2008-04-20 12:11:35 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-20 11:53:16 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-20 12:14:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"zzbunker@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-06 16:04:59 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-05-07 14:32:56 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"zzbunker@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-07 08:41:37 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Ed Murphy <emurphy42@[  2008-05-07 21:16:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-08 08:08:21 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
dean.menezes@[EMAIL PROTE  2008-05-08 06:57:52 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Rich Hutnik <richardhu  2008-05-11 14:12:57 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"Chess One" <  2008-05-12 10:02:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Rich Hutnik <richardhu  2008-05-12 09:35:00 

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tan12V112 Fri Jul 25 0:14:43 CDT 2008.