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Gaming > Abstract (perfect information, pure strategy) > Re: The Future ...
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Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential heresy

by Harald Korneliussen <vintermann@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Apr 4, 2008 at 01:18 AM

On Apr 2, 11:20 pm, richardhut...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
> You can have one version that is forever pulling the
> rug out as a challenge.
>

Playing Nomic on the rules of chess is a very different game from
chess. And if I wanted to play Mind Ninja I would. I do, and I do, in
fact :-)

When we come down to it, you want diversity in abstract games. So do
I, but we just have to accept that Chess players have very different
priorities. They want stability. They want to get really good in one
game. The rules aren't as im****tant that it is seen as a game of
skill, can actually be played as a game of skill (studied intensively,
etc.) and that players can be found. We just can't turn their kind
into our kind by newsgroup proposals.

I think that to get the man in the street to appreciate diversity in
abstract games, we should not try to give them a taste of thousands of
games, but an appreciation for a few more. Othello, for instance.
Everyone knows it, and they see that "lifetime to master" tagline, but
they have no idea of what real Othello strategy looks like. If we
could just get them to go a little deeper, they might "get" abstracts.
They would get that "wow, this isn't at all what I had thought!"
feeling, and it wouldn't stop there.

I've seen just that happen, recently. I invited a eurogamer to play
Z=E8rtz on Rognlie's PBEM server. Now Z=E8rtz is really a very simple
game. It's not really designed to be studied for a thousand years (at
least not of the standard size). The clever thing about it is that the
naive game is a completely different beast from the game played once
you know the basic strategies. Othello is also like that, but not
nearly as extreme. With Z=E8rtz, you think you're playing Nim and then
WHAM! Suicide chess!

Judging from this person's comments in mail, play frequency at
Rognlie's and blogposts, I think I gained a point for abstract games
there.
 




 157 Posts in Topic:
The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential heresy f
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 09:43:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Sanny <softtanks@[EMAI  2008-04-02 09:56:13 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Nick Wedd <nick@[EMAIL  2008-04-02 18:15:39 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-02 17:22:30 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Sanny <softtanks@[EMAI  2008-04-02 10:27:40 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-02 12:09:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Erich Schneider <erich  2008-04-03 10:49:18 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 13:49:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 14:10:20 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-02 21:10:59 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 14:20:56 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 14:48:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 14:50:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"David Kane" &l  2008-04-02 15:14:53 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-02 18:03:31 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-02 18:07:17 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-02 18:19:37 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-02 20:51:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-02 22:57:50 
Arimaa / Re: The Future of Chess ...
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-03 00:41:05 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 03:22:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 20:10:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 20:19:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 20:24:06 
Re: Arimaa / Re: The Future of Chess ...
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-03 13:56:23 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-03 14:02:09 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Chris Mattern <syscjm@  2008-04-03 17:28:43 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 23:16:47 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Phil Carmody <thefatph  2008-04-04 11:04:27 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 15:13:30 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 15:15:57 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 15:29:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 22:52:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-03 23:19:10 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-03 18:12:52 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-03 18:22:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-04 14:00:57 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 19:13:14 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-03 19:30:11 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"David Kane" &l  2008-04-03 20:22:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-03 23:57:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"David Kane" &l  2008-04-04 09:42:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-04 00:27:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-04 01:18:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Ed Murphy <emurphy42@[  2008-04-05 03:55:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-04 01:26:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-04 02:33:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-04 02:39:52 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-04 03:03:20 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-04 04:44:57 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-04 04:47:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-04 14:09:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-04 14:43:06 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-04 10:38:07 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-04 10:43:20 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
"Wlodzimierz Holszty  2008-04-04 12:33:54 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Christopher Dearlove <  2008-04-04 21:25:24 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-04 15:32:39 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 21:50:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:01:48 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:12:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:14:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:17:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:38:43 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Ed Murphy <emurphy42@[  2008-04-05 04:53:33 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-04 22:49:17 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 02:43:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 02:48:10 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 02:52:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Nick Wedd <nick@[EMAIL  2008-04-05 13:49:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
SBD <DrDowd@[EMAIL PRO  2008-04-05 06:49:42 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 07:33:21 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 07:36:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 09:12:09 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 09:17:47 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 09:51:01 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 09:55:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"Chess One" <  2008-04-05 13:13:18 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-05 17:28:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 09:58:39 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 10:01:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-05 17:16:43 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-05 11:00:28 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 11:03:45 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-05 17:50:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-05 11:25:48 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 13:46:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 13:55:53 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 14:03:08 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-05 15:45:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 16:31:11 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 16:34:37 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-05 16:59:52 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:13:07 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:17:15 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:20:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:24:56 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-05 22:31:50 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Nick Wedd <nick@[EMAIL  2008-04-06 08:44:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 01:46:24 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 02:14:56 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-06 08:21:09 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-06 08:41:49 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 09:05:21 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-06 11:07:11 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 11:35:08 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-06 20:25:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-06 21:04:23 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-06 21:13:31 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-06 14:40:35 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 19:32:25 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-06 19:45:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-06 21:20:39 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-06 21:21:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
richardhutnik@[EMAIL PROT  2008-04-06 21:28:24 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"marksteere@[EMAIL P  2008-04-06 21:58:15 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-07 00:23:14 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-07 08:19:13 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-07 18:05:32 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-13 22:52:01 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-13 23:15:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Harald Korneliussen <v  2008-04-15 03:19:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
jsavard@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-15 11:43:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Nick Wedd <nick@[EMAIL  2008-04-15 12:06:22 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
jsavard@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-15 11:44:12 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-04-17 15:16:49 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Rich Hutnik <richardhu  2008-04-17 15:23:55 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
anw@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (A  2008-04-18 00:59:45 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-04-18 15:09:17 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-17 19:18:19 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
John Bailey <john_bail  2008-04-18 09:40:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-18 17:15:38 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
John Bailey <john_bail  2008-04-18 22:18:01 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-04-18 21:34:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Guy Macon <http://www.  2008-04-19 07:27:50 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
John Bailey <john_bail  2008-04-19 08:15:58 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-04-19 19:23:12 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Bernier <david25  2008-04-19 17:55:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
anw@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (A  2008-04-18 17:09:51 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Rich Hutnik <richardhu  2008-04-17 22:26:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-04-18 15:24:48 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Denis Feldmann <feldma  2008-04-18 16:51:04 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-19 19:07:46 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"jeremy.p.spinrad@[E  2008-04-19 20:18:33 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Christopher Dearlove <  2008-04-20 12:06:48 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Christopher Dearlove <  2008-04-20 12:11:35 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-20 11:53:16 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck" (potential here
Quadibloc <jsavard@[EM  2008-04-20 12:14:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"zzbunker@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-06 16:04:59 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
David Richerby <davidr  2008-05-07 14:32:56 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"zzbunker@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-07 08:41:37 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Ed Murphy <emurphy42@[  2008-05-07 21:16:44 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-08 08:08:21 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
dean.menezes@[EMAIL PROTE  2008-05-08 06:57:52 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Rich Hutnik <richardhu  2008-05-11 14:12:57 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
"Chess One" <  2008-05-12 10:02:03 
Re: The Future of Chess and Getting It "Unstuck"
Rich Hutnik <richardhu  2008-05-12 09:35:00 

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tan12V112 Fri Jul 25 19:58:25 CDT 2008.